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story category Congress Now Eyes Embarq's Use Of NebuAD
Interestingly ignores ISP sale of user clickstream data...
01:10PM Wednesday Jul 16 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: legal · business · privacy · Embarq
While Charter recently got all the bad PR for their decision to sell your browsing data to NebuAD, they certainly weren't the only ISP tinkering with the technology. Congress now appears to be looking into Embarq's recent NebuAD trial, sending the company a letter asking them precise details about the trial, including how many customers were impacted, in which markets the trial was conducted, and just how those customers were informed.
We are writing with respect to a recent test conducted by Embarq to tailor Internet advertising to the web-browsing patterns of individual Embarq subscribers...As you may know, questions have been raised regarding the applicability of privacy protections contained in the Communications Act of 1934, the Cable Act of 1984, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, and other statutes, to such practices.
Of course like many ISPs, Embarq announced the trial by burying it in their privacy policy. Once the press and Congress started hammering Charter, Embarq, like several other ISPs (Centurytel), acted quickly to distance themselves from their use of the technology. Until just the last few weeks, Embarq's privacy policy still referenced the trial, but has since been scrubbed. This is what their privacy policy used to say:
EMBARQ may use information such as the websites you visit or online searches that you conduct to deliver or facilitate the delivery of targeted advertisements. The delivery of these advertisements will be based on anonymous surfing behavior and will not include users' names, email addresses, telephone numbers, or any other Personally Identifiable Information. You may choose to opt out of this preference advertising service. By opting out, you will continue to receive advertisements as normal; but these advertisements will be less relevant and less useful to you. If you would like to opt out, click here.
Of course there was no mention that NebuAD's opt-out system only opts you out of receiving personalized ads -- it does not stop your browsing history from being tracked and sold to NebuAD. That flaky opt-out system potentially puts all ISPs who used this system on pretty shaky legal ground, which is why Congress has started poking around. Judging from ISP reactions, it's pretty clear they know they face legal risk.

With Congress suddenly so concerned about users being notified before their browsing history is sold, it's interesting they've never investigated the ISP sale of clickstream data. ISPs generally don't comment on that, but it's estimated they make about $5 per user, per month off of the sales. Your authorization for them to do so is also generally buried in vague legalese in your end user license agreement, and there's no way to opt out.

Related:
  1. After Charter's Decision To Drop NebuAD, Will Other ISPs Follow?
  2. Embarq Offers More Data On NebuAD Trial
  3. Wednesday Evening Links
  4. Big Brother Is Watching (And Using Deep Packet Inspection)
  5. Friday Evening Links
  6. NebuAD, Several ISPs Sued Over Behavioral Ads
  7. AT&T, Verizon: Privacy Advocates Extraordinaire
  8. EFF Challenges Telecom Immunity
Forums » Congress Now Eyes Embarq's Use Of NebuAD
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Post a:
Stumbles

join:2002-12-17
Port Saint Lucie, FL

We don't really mean it.

By opting out, you will continue to receive advertisements as normal; but these advertisements will be less relevant and less useful to you..

Hee, nice. An opt out that isn't.

MicroWISP

join:2008-01-30
TX Republic

Re: We don't really mean it.

Stumbles, the ISP is just letting you know that you will still receive ads, just not the targeted ones. Just like before they started using NebuAd. As an ISP myself, I can understand, I can see my customers now saying, "I opted out but I still get ads and popups, why?"
--
"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it."
Stumbles

join:2002-12-17
Port Saint Lucie, FL

Re: We don't really mean it.

I don't think ISP's should be allowed to interject crap such as ads, targeted or not into my data stream as I surf about. If such things are on the website I visit, that is one thing. By default it should be an automatic OPT-OUT with the requirement ISPs ASK for permission FIRST. The assumption ISPs think they own MY data is bull.

funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast

Karl was WAY ahead on this...

... »Wide Open West Using NebuAD

Congress is very surprised to hear that Embarq users weren't notified. Fact is that neither were WOW! users. And of all the ISPs listed on »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NebuAd -- I don't think any of these users were notified. (Except maybe CenturyTel? I'm not sure why I believe that CenturyTel was an exception.)

There just isn't any evidence that users knew beforehand on any of these systems.

--Robb
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
goalieskates

join:2004-09-12
Knoxville, TN

Re: Karl was WAY ahead on this...

I know for certain Knology users weren't notified. They're small enough that I imagine it will take Congress a while to get to them, but hopefully they will. Otherwise I'll have to jump to a new ISP and I don't care much for their competition here.

funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast

Clickstream Data -- who is buying it -- who is selling it?

One item of truth (or at least truthiness ) is that all ISPs sell their clickstream data.

So who is really selling this, and who is buying it?

One company that buys clickstream data appears to be Hitwise, an Australian subsidiary of Experian. The "How we do it" web page says, "Hitwise has developed proprietary software that Internet Service Providers (ISPs) use to analyze website usage logs created on their network. The anonymous data sent to Hitwise from the ISPs include a range of industry standard metrics relating to the viewing of websites including page requests, visits and average visit length."
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

tad2020

join:2007-07-17
Orange, CA

For the love of..

Would someone please inform those congressmen about ISP's practice of selling your clickstream.

Hazy Arc

join:2006-04-10
Greenwood, SC

Return On Investment?

If Embarq knocks off $2.50 a month from my bill (splitting the estimated $5 they make off of selling my data), then it wouldn't be such a big deal. Alas, if anything, my bill has done nothing but go up and my service has done nothing but dwindled.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Return On Investment?

all ILECs prices ago up faster than cable. You gotta add in the "other taxes and fees"

atangel
Now What??
Premium
join:2002-02-18
Bronx, NY

I agree. Listen, if my surfing has value, then they should share that asset with me if they are going to profit from it. After all, in my mind, it is a lot like a copyright. Your right to my "Asset" (words or surfing habits) is contingent on you paying me my share.
--
The reason you think I'm way on the left is cause you're so far to the right.
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA

Re: Return On Investment?

Or, we can sell your information, raise your bill anyway, and keep the profits! Don't like it, well, too bad, use some other ISP! (No other choices, or they're doing it too? Oh well, we don't care!)

DataDoc
Waiting for Godot
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC
Maybe they are, by not raising your bill to cover the NebuAd fees.

atangel
Now What??
Premium
join:2002-02-18
Bronx, NY

Re: Return On Investment?

Then they aren't (that's like saying your boss gave you raise because he didn't charge you for the electricity!).

It has to be a transaction both parties enter into knowingly, you pay 50/month or 52.50/Month if you opt out. That way, they can determine the value and either up the amount or lower it. If no-one participates at the 2.50 rate, and they think there is money to be made for the corporation, then they will have to offer more.
--
The reason you think I'm way on the left is cause you're so far to the right.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Return On Investment?

Who says it has to be agreed upon boy both parties?

You?

atangel
Now What??
Premium
join:2002-02-18
Bronx, NY

Re: Return On Investment?

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

Who says it has to be agreed upon boy both parties?

You?
If it is to be an honest financial transaction, that's what it should be. They derive value from my actions, when I already pay for a service, then I should be allowed to participate and also derive value from my actions. Saying simply that they are not going to raise the price (this is in response to Datadoc, btw), does not constitute a fair trade. They want to be capitalists? Well we should demand the same right. I wonder how much money they (whomever they are) make off our data while we get nothing in return.

Its what is called an Intangible Asset. I just think we should be paid for our contribution!
--
The reason you think I'm way on the left is cause you're so far to the right.

funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast


edit:
July 16th, @04:04PM

I LOVE YOUR IDEA (well, okay, I like it a lot). Here's why --

it's totally and completely "opt in"

1. It's informed -- if you opt in to this, you're getting a check, so chances are that you really do know that your data is being sold rather than something going on behind your back

2. It's optional -- if you don't opt in, you still get to have Internet service. One of my big fears is that ISP's will make this "Opt In" by saying that customers can take it or leave it, but taking it is a condition for service.

3. It provides a competition angle. If you ISP doesn't pay you enough, then opt out and opt-in with someone else that will pay you for your clickstream data or your data stream.

Perhaps you weren't trying to be serious, and I'm not sure that I'm completely serious either. Someone in the ad business ought to look at this thread and tell us if this idea has any legs and why or why not! Some from the privacy angle will also have to tell us why it's a good/bad idea.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

atangel
Now What??
Premium
join:2002-02-18
Bronx, NY


edit:
July 16th, @04:08PM

Re: Return On Investment?

Um, no, actually, I was serious. LOL!

It started when I was telling people that free software/spyware was not free... that those companies track your movements and sell the data (that they were working for these companies for nothing and selling their privacy for free).
--
The reason you think I'm way on the left is cause you're so far to the right.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Cale Act of 1984

CA of 1984 doesnt apply here so they'll have to find something else but they're an ILEC so be like all the others and just buy your way threw. Especially since they can claim they were acting on the best interest of the USA for "wire tapping" since we know all now that if you claim its for terrorists the gov't will let you keep on doing it.

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
·T-Mobile US
·Comcast
·Embarq
·Vonage


edit:
July 16th, @02:51PM

Personally Identifiable Information???

What if I pay for a static IP? Doesn't that IP address personally identify me? It may not be my IP address forever but it is mine currently, just like my phone number. Some people will argue that my ISP can change my static IP, so can your phone company (area code splits).

I don't see a huge difference between a phone number and a static IP address. While dynamic IP addresses still resolve in DNS servers to your ISP, a static IP address can be resolved to your "Personally Identifiable Information".

I guess the point here is your static IP address and in some cases even your dynamic IP address can be used to get your personal information and therefor the IP address itself should be considered "Personally Identifiable Information".

IP Address 209.123.109.175 belongs to www.dslreports.com which from a whois search shows tucows.com as the registrar.

tucows.com says the following about dslreports.com
broadbandreports.com
408/1636 third avenue
New York, NY 10128
US

If that's not a violation of privacy we're all screwed. Connecting an IP address to a domain name and then to an address is public info. However looking at the browsing history for an IP address and then saying "we have no idea who that IP address belongs to" is a completely FALSE statement.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Personally Identifiable Information???

how is showing who owns a domain in violation of privacy. get over it already.

if you're that worried about your information being private get the hell off the internet already.

You agree to have your information public as soon as you turn on your web browser or sign up for someone online. Especially a domain unless you pay extra to have the information kept private.

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
·T-Mobile US
·Comcast
·Embarq
·Vonage


edit:
July 16th, @03:25PM

Re: Personally Identifiable Information???

I really hope Playboy sends you a letter in the mail offering a one month free subscription that starts out with "Because you browse soo much porn in the internet....."

I also hope your daughter checks the mail first.

Also you are going to have a tough time hiding all the VD medication samples from your wife. Even though all you did was miss click on the wrong link. YEA like she will believe that one.

Go away troll. My post was perfectly reasonable in stating that NebuAD considers your IP address not private info when in fact it IS private info.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH
·buckeye cable

Re: Personally Identifiable Information???

first off i'm not married and nor do i have kids and i do watch what I click.

Your IP is not private information. you may consider it but its not. As soon as you go onto the Internet it's sending out your IP no way to hide it how much you try. It is bound to be found and tracked back to you anyway you spin it.

If you don't want someone seeing your information don't use the internet. it's that simple.

And call me what you want but the fact is your IP is NOT private and DOES NOT belong to you. Don't like it? TOO FUCKIN BAD!

funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast

Re: Personally Identifiable Information???

Kyle,

You said, "If you don't want someone seeing your information don't use the internet."

And, for normal web browsing, I agree with you. The servers you visit have to know your IP address in order to send information back to you. They also log this information for various purposes, and some even use it to organize their advertising to you. By visiting these sites, you're implicitly giving them permission to track this.

That said, NebuAd and transparent boxes that record clickstream data do not fall into the above category. They see everything because they're installed inside the ISP. They not only see the same data that one website sees, but for all the other websites, too. That's a very different situation. The internet is the conveyance were you conduct your most personal research, and it's aggregation is not appropriate fodder for sales to 3rd parties in my opinion and sense of privacy.

If you don't share my sensibilities, fine. But at least acknowledge that they are both mine to have and not uncommon.

Robb Topolski
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
Comcast: We never did anything wrong, and we'll never do it again...
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Personally Identifiable Information???

i know how NebuAd works.

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
·T-Mobile US
·Comcast
·Embarq
·Vonage

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

first off i'm not married and nor do i have kids and i do watch what I click.

Your phone number is not private information. you may consider it but its not. As soon as you go onto the telephone it's sending out your phone number no way to hide it how much you try. It is bound to be found and tracked back to you anyway you spin it.

If you don't want someone seeing your information don't use the telephone. it's that simple.

And call me what you want but the fact is your phone number is NOT private and DOES NOT belong to you. Don't like it? TOO FUCKIN BAD!
I'm going to replace "IP address" with "phone number" also "internet" with "telephone" you tell me if your post doesn't make perfect sense. Sounds like you phone number isn't private information either.
TheWickerMan

join:2002-04-09
Enola, PA

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

first off i'm not married and nor do i have kids
There's a shocker.
Smith6612
Premium
join:2008-02-01
united state
The owners of websites can choose to have their domain name's registar information anonymous or not on the internet. All you have to do is ask.

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
·T-Mobile US
·Comcast
·Embarq
·Vonage


edit:
July 16th, @04:46PM

Re: Personally Identifiable Information???

That is correct. Most charge extra for it, or you could enter the wrong info.

Even if you do hide the registrant info for the domain, I'm sure if you have a domain then you have some sort of website that has your contact info on it. All this info is public information or information YOU have provided, But when you attach browsing histories and search terms to it, it becomes a problem.

Your IP address IS private, keep it that way.
hottboiinnc
Kyle

join:2003-10-15
Toledo, OH

Re: Personally Identifiable Information???

ICANN rules actually say you can not fill in the wrong information and go on and on about what can and will happen if information is found to be wrong and not up to date.

and again IP is NEVER private. ITS always seen by the public.

funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast


edit:
July 16th, @07:31PM

Re: Personally Identifiable Information???

said by hottboiinnc See Profile :

and again IP is NEVER private. ITS always seen by the public.
Okay, hottboiinnc, then tell us what the first three octets of my IP address and FLengineer's IP address is? This should be no problem for you, since the information is public.

I think you'll find it is less public than you think. I don't know yours either. It is revealed to DSLReports because the end points are communicating with each other. But the forwarding transactions by devices in the middle of the network are not, and should not be, public.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
Comcast: We never did anything wrong, and we'll never do it again...

FLengineer
Premium
join:2007-06-26
FYI

»tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3041

IPv4 is mentioned in 2.2
theDUDE
vote with your wallet

join:2008-05-10
Wytheville, VA

???

So when EMBARQ finally decides to provide me the DSL service they've been promising for years i won't have to worry about this nebuad stuff! I guess that's something.
cyclone_z

join:2006-06-19
Ames, IA

Congress!??? Concerned about privacy?

Wow, this is something else. Congress is interested in stopping spying instead of legalizing it??

How could this be? Oh yeah, I forgot: spying on Americans is the government's job, and the government hates competition!
Forums » Congress Now Eyes Embarq's Use Of NebuAD


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